Equality in LDS Marriage
By Jana on Nov 25, 2007
My spouse and I married 15 years ago in the temple–a ceremony that reinforced differing gender roles for men and women. However, my marriage has been fairly egalitarian from the beginning. For example, my husband (John) and I both wore engagement rings–simple gold bands on the appropriate finger. When we married we each added another band with the words “vous et nul autre” (you and no other) inscribed on it. While wearing the same rings might seem a small token, I believe it did start our marriage off with symbols that reinforced our ideals.
Some other ways that we have incorporated equality into our marriage:
–We both take responsbility for household chores and childcare. We’ve chosen to live simply so our home can be tidied quickly and efficiently. We both enjoy cooking and take turns making dinner. We’ve taught our children to join us in housework (for example, they take care of most of the laundry).
–John told me his temple name.
–Both of us volunteer in our kids’ school classrooms, attend their events, etc. We both know their friends and their friends’ parents.
–Neither of us ‘presides’ in spiritual decision-making. We discuss and practice religion together.
–For us sex is not about coercion or ‘favors’ given to the other partner.
–We believe that either of us can be the primary breadwinner (even though in practice it has generally been John).
–John and I both know how to use powertools, to troubleshoot computer problems, and change the oil in our car.
What are your ideas about equality in LDS marriage? In what ways have you seen egalitarian ideals practiced in marriage? Does the ideal of equality ever cause friction with the notion of men ‘presiding’ in marriage as discussed in the Family Proclamation?
My husband and I have been married ten years, also a temple marriage, and I have never felt any inequality in our relationship. We both came into the marriage as individuals rather than as “man” and “woman”, and it never even occurred to me (and I don’t think to him, either) that one of us was any better or more powerful than the other. I see more women snickering at the powerlessness, uselessness, and foolishness of men in the church, at least in the wards I’ve been in, than unrighteous dominion by men over their wives, though I know that that exists, too.
We have slightly more “traditional” role assignments than Jana appears to - I take care of probably 85% of the housework and childcare, though he is willing to do whatever I ask and often does things to help me out when I have a lot on my plate, like making dinner or breakfast, playing with and distracting the kids if I have something I need to get done, etc. And he never complains if there are dishes in the sink or toys scattered across the living room. To be honest, the main reason I do so much of the housework is that I prefer my way of folding clothes, washing dishes, etc. He would probably do more if I asked. We go to the kids’ parent-teacher conferences and school events together whenever possible, though more frequently one of us will go while the other watches the baby and/or older ones to make things easier. He is very supportive of my side-business of editing and has encouraged me to get an advanced degree - I don’t want to at this point, but if I did, he would be behind me 100%.
For my part, I try to be supportive when he needs to work long hours (as he often does) and take business trips (less often, but sometimes). I never have complained about it out loud, but I admit to feeling a little jealous of some of his opportunities in the past, especially as the kids have gotten older and more of a handful. I got a total attitude adjustment from, of all things, a book by Dr. Laura Schlesinger that a friend had given me as a gag gift. In the book, she mentions that women, particularly stay-at-home moms, often begrudge men their “exciting” and “stimulating” work and travel for work, when the men are thinking how much they would rather be at home with the family and not dealing with stress and annoyance at work. That really made me think about our different roles and my tendency to buy into this idea (sometimes - often - promoted by feminists) that if men have it or are doing it, it must be better than what women have or are doing. It’s not. It’s just not. I also encourage him to take time for himself (another thing that women seem to begrudge men quite often) to go to the gym, go shopping, etc.
We are also more traditional in that I have no desire to participate in priesthood ordinances. I never even thought of asking for Sean’s temple name - to me that’s a big no-no because of the covenant associated with it, and I never thought of his knowing mine as anything but part of the ritual. He can call me from the veil, but I don’t have to come to him if I don’t want to, you know what I mean? Not that I wouldn’t want to, of course. I also never wanted to “preside” in the home. I don’t even know what that means, to be honest. We make decisions together about pretty much everything just because it’s in our nature to do so. The vast majority of healthy LDS marriages I’ve seen seem to work the same way, though who knows what goes on behind closed doors. My husband’s parents were divorced, and my parents’ marriage was extremely dysfunctional and even abusive, nearly all on my mother’s side, particularly in the last few years of her life as her mental and physical illnesses progressed. I suppose that has made my husband and me more aware of things that can damage a marriage and more likely to avoid them.
I don’t know whether any of these things is particularly LDS - unhealthy marriages in and out of the church seem to share similar characteristics, and if a man or woman is going to abuse his or her authority or position in the marriage, whether by withholding sex or being controlling or even outright abusing the other spouse, that person will do it regardless of the religious injunctions for or against particular behaviors. Religious interpretations can be used to justify these behaviors, but I don’t think they really create them from scratch.
Comment # 1 by Villate | Nov 25, 2007 | Reply
Oh, and I never had an engagement ring - I think they’re a waste of money and a ridiculous symbol of ownership. In fact, when we agreed to get married, I asked him, “Did you get me an engagement ring?” He looked a little nervous and said, “No, I didn’t think you’d want one.” I said, “Good, then you know me well enough that we can get married.” Each of us has a gold wedding band made by the father of my best friend from college - no jewels.
Comment # 2 by Villate | Nov 25, 2007 | Reply
Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.
This is a really fasinating topic to me and a great way for me to join this merry band I’ve been observing for so long.
I’ve always felt that a lot of women in the wards that we have lived in have looked upon me as a bad wife (and bad LDS woman) because I don’t cook. My husband does and he is much better at it than I am.
I would say that we are equals in our marriage of 14 years We are both return missionaries, were married in the temple and jointly were inactive for a couple of years before having kids. We knew that having kids right away was not the right thing for us because of various family background issues that I’m sure I’ll discuss at another time.
We both make the big decisions like where we’re going to live and what house we’re going to buy, etc. I really think most marriages are like that for Generation X. We’re the mold breakers.
I’m actually the one with a college education because I refused to be one of those girls who quit going to school to support her husband through college. I liked school better than my husband did anyway. I would be a professional student if I could.
In a couple of years I’ll be starting my master’s but my husband is trying to talk me into law school.
Hubby and I have a deal about the cooking, he cooks and I clean but I like cleaning better so it works out fine for me. I love working outside especially if I get to demo something,
We each have our own hobbies, he plays airsoft and I belly dance. He is really supportive and makes sure that I make it to my practices and he attends my performances.
I have never felt the need to be anything other than myself and isn’t that true equality in a marriage? However, it did help that before we got married I sat my husband down and said “These are the things that I am and these are the things that I am not. If you can live with that, great’.
We’ve shared our patriarachial (sp) blessings with one another and I have been curious about his temple name but figure I’ll find out someday so it hasn’t been that big of a deal for me. But now this topic has me curious again….:)
We have an amazing sex life and sex is really important for both of us. Sometimes I think more than the average married couple…
We both know that we are trying and doing our best and completely love and respect the other.
As far as my husband “presiding” over the home if goes like this Me:”Honey, gather the kids for FHE”. Me:”Honey, tell the kids it’s time to read the BOM.” Me: “Honey, we’re here for prayer. Call on somebody so these kids can go to bed!!!”
He helps out at school just as much as I do and has gone to parent teacher conferences and meetings because he’s a dad and to him, that’s part of being a dad.
We both agree that we want to be creamated when we die because it’s cheaper. But that’s right now in our 30’s. When we’re the age of a tree we may change our minds and want to be buried.
The greatest indicator of equality in our marriage?
I can’t tell you how many women, LDS and otherwise, have told me what a great guy my husband is and they’re right.
And that we can totally be yelling at each other and than 20 minutes later be making out on the couch.
Comment # 3 by T. Hogan | Nov 27, 2007 | Reply
I forgot to add that I came to the relationship with my own engagement ring and when we’d agreed to get married I gave it to him and said “Here, find a band to match” and he did.
Comment # 4 by T. Hogan | Nov 27, 2007 | Reply
It sounds like the neuterings are almost complete. Carry on.
-David
Comment # 5 by David Littlefield | Nov 27, 2007 | Reply
David -
Har de har har. I’d hardly call my husband “neutered.” More men should add their perspectives on this topic, including you.
Comment # 6 by Villate | Nov 27, 2007 | Reply
My wife occassionally asks for help in the kitchen but she really doesn’t like me in there. She finds its easier to do it than explain it. Same with washing the clothes, she gets testy if I accidentally put clothes in the wrong pile. Her words tell me she wants help but her actions tell me to take a hike. It is true that some women say they want something when they really don’t want it at all.
I do all the outside yard work, vacuum the entire house and maintain the cars. She handles the money, cooking and house work. When we redecorate a room we are truly equal and we both work tegether very well. I’m finding that the best way to figure out a women is to give more credibility to how she behaves than to what she says. If she says she wants help in the kitchen but then treats you like a galley slave when your in there then its time to go watch the football game. When I’m helping in the kitchen, the first time she yells “NO, that doesn’t go there”, then I stand up erectly and walk out of the room. If she really wanted me in there she would treat me with a modicum of respect.
You’ve probably already figured this out but we are an older couple.
Comment # 7 by Gordon Hill | Nov 27, 2007 | Reply
I am an engaged LDS undergrad at an eastern university. My fiancee, Jenn, and I are both returned missionaries, and she is finishing her masters degree, though I am yet a sophomore. Yes, she’s a bit older. While I fully believe that women and men can and must equally shoulder the burdens of matrimony, I also feel strongly that there is a danger inherent in the deconstructionist ideas that are so in vogue among progressive members. While domestic chores and decision making should most certainly fall in the domain of both marital partners, there are responsibilities in raising a family that fall primarily on either the husband or the wife. Of course there are exceptions, but the Proclamation on the Family outlines what the roles of husbands and wifes should be generally. I am not sure if they are natural laws that need to be heeded, but I do feel them to be guidelines for happy living.
While a woman should not be confined to the home, a mother should be the primary caretaker of her children. All too often, mothers who make sacrifices for their children are made to feel guilty or useless because they are not liberated and productive members of society. While my wife-to-be has a very promising future in academia should she so choose, she has decided that the possibility of pursuing a PhD in the near future will not dissuade her from choosing instead to nurture our children. Although values her education highly, she eagerly anticipates the fulfillment and joy of raising, teaching, and caring for our little ones. She was delighted to hear Sister Beck’s conference talk validating the sacrifices of millions of mothers — mothers who are told far too often how much greater their potential is if only they could shrug off the chains of domestic servitude. In truth, motherhood — as one of the greatest sacrifices a woman can make — has the potential to yield life’s greatest rewards. Though Jenn will have the chance to participate in a variety of constructive activities outside our home, and she may even return to her education, she is independent enough to be an intellectual who chooses the greater good — and her greater joy — over personal ambitions.
While men, on the other hand, are not doomed to a life of labor outside of the home, fathers most certainly have the obligation to see met the temporal needs of their wives and children. This role, while not superior to that of the wife’s, is definitely distinct. It does not mean that wives should not work or that they mustn’t touch the car engine or the broken AC unit. It does mean, however, that I will make whatever sacrifice necessary to ensure that my wife and children have enough to get by. That said, husbands cannot in any way feel themselves absolved from the child-rearing process by paying the bills. They can contribute just as meaningfully to their children’s upbringing as do their wives.
I guess what I am trying to say is this: Marriage is an equal partnership of individuals who are very different trying to realize common aspirations. The most noble and worthwhile of aspirations — both for the individual and for society — is that of raising children. I believe the principles outlined in the Proclamation on the Family to be the most conducive, generally, to the happiness of all involved in the family process. Unfortunately, women and men both are being taught by the mores of the times that parenthood is not truly such a noble ideal. Women, also, are told that they can do anything a man can do. Of course they can! The trouble, though, is that women can’t do everything a traditional father should do AND everything a traditional mother should do. The have-it-all attitude of today is destructive. Priorities must be set. Roles must be established. The two really important things to remember are:
1) Set priorities and establish roles TOGETHER and with the Lord.
2) While there are general guidelines, the application of those guidelines is an intimate and private process. Decisions and judgments made about how OTHERS should or should not share duties, raise children, etc… are almost always inappropriate.
As for presiding in the home, I feel this charge, as well as the possession of the priesthood in general, to be God’s effort to instill in men the responsibility, duty, and devotion for their families that women almost always have inherently. Men, without an express obligation to lead in righteousness, can really be twerps. Heck, we’re still slackers even with the express obligation. Though I doubt many members would posit that the husband’s role of presiding in the home makes him any more righteouss than his wife, I am sure that many would agree that it is good — again, in general — for men to feel a heightened sense of duty to be at least AS righteouss as their wives so often are. I know that Jenn is often for me a true inspiration and motivation for righteouss living.
While the temple ceremony does enforce ideas of gender distinction, I feel that it does so in the very best of ways. It is a magnificent reminder that while we are certainly separate and distinct, we have a shared potential and a common divine worth and inheretence. Rarely have I felt more equal and united with Jenn than in the Celestial Room.
While sharing temple names is very egalitarian, I would fear it to be just a tad irreverent given the covenental context and the — as I understand it — explicit injunction to not do so.
Sorry this was so long. I guess I have just had this on my mind quite a bit since getting engaged.
Comment # 8 by Walker | Nov 28, 2007 | Reply
Ha ha Gordon! Whenever my husband cooks (and I’m grateful when he does, since I’m usually very busy or trying to get a few minutes’ more sleep), he makes a terrible mess. I just take a deep breath and go clean it up. I bet that deep down, your wife appreciates that you want to help. It’s taken me a while to just let my husband help me out - I tend to say, “Here, let me do that.” I’ve realized I do this with my kids, too, and if I keep it up, they’ll never learn to take care of themselves!
Comment # 9 by Villate | Nov 28, 2007 | Reply
I’m in my second year of both marriage and law school. My wife and I are expecting our first (a girl) at the end of January. She graduated with a BS in psych and has been working for the past year.
I feel like we’re pretty equal. We take turns cooking. When school is heavy, she cooks more, when it’s light, I cook more. With pregnancy taking it’s tolls, I’m doing more a bit more often. Same with other household stuff like laundry, etc.
We have traditional rings. Probably because she likes diamonds and I don’t. My wife sometimes wishes I would “preside” more when it comes to decision-making and receiving spiritual guidance. I tell her that the spirituality of our family is her responsibility as much as mine and that I’m not going to do her job for her.
The one area of inequality we have is that she does all the finances. This is because I’m more happy-go-lucky about it and it drives her crazy. So when I even try to do it, she takes over.
Comment # 10 by JKC | Nov 28, 2007 | Reply
I think this argument of “she does it better” when it comes to housework is a cop-out. Most girls are brought up learning how to do housework & most boys are brought up to go out & play. When it comes down to a marriage, the divisions are already there: she knows how to do it better, so she’ll do it. This leaves women with the lioness’ share of work: that of getting food & raising children.
I’m not trying to make this a personal attack on anyone who commented before me, I just see this argument too often in “men’s rights” circles: she’s better at it, she’s more interested in it, that’s why she does more.
On the religion side of things, my observation has been that religious households more often have the “traditional” division of labor: she does the housework, he does the bacon-bringing. I think religion reinforces these cultural roles, but I don’t think it’s entirely to blame.
Comment # 11 by Reg-o-rama | Nov 28, 2007 | Reply
WALKER — You are so naive! Why keep your temple covenants and refrain from telling your wife your name!? C’mon - here at Sunstoned we are englightened and can brag about breaking our temple covenants with impunity.
Oh, and I do the breast feeding while my wife goes off to work as a lumberjack.
Okay . . . seriously, Walker I appreciated your comments. I love all the differences between men and women. Why are some people so afraid to acknowledge the inherent differences? Since when is Jana’s vision of egalitarian marriages AT ALL desirable? I work at the law office, she works at home with our kids. I know her temple name, but she doesn’t know mine. If I feel like I’ve recieved revelation contrary to her ideas for our family, we go with my idea (btw, this has happened exactly 0 times in our marriage). I mow the lawn. She chooses curtains. We both enjoy all varieties of household duties - such as cooking, but never ever in the name of some lame egalitarian ideal!
Women are equal to men - period. NOT IDENTICAL. When people go around saying “this is what we do to make our marriage egalitarian” it ends up sounding like, “this is what we do to make up for the fact that women are inferior to men.” The church sometimes puts out Ensign articles entitled, “Finding Joy in Womanhood” —- WHAT?! Is it THAT hard? Somehow I missed the article entitled “Finding Joy in Manhood.” Jana - I’m sure you are a great person with the best of intentions, but your entry strikes me as the Sunstoned version of “Finding Joy in Womanhood.”
I am not a woman, but I wish that one of the dozens of women I know who agree with my comments were posting this instead of me.
Comment # 12 by anon | Nov 28, 2007 | Reply
anon,
I’m a woman and I will second what you have said about relishing the differences, including different roles. Equality is and should not be reduced to a list of to-dos that look the same. Equality in the plan of salvation is not about roles and responsibilities, but about importance in the plan and about eternal potential.
“Women are equal to men — period.”
Indeed! We don’t need to change the structure of things to make that true. There may be some people who don’t get that and who practice unrighteous dominion (this could be either male or female). But that doesn’t change what is true.
Marriage can (and I would argue should be) an equal partnership without dividing up roles or jobs or responsibilities or whatever else in a two-column, mine-matches-yours-exactly kind of a way. That is not equality. That is just doing the same things.
Comment # 13 by m&m | Nov 28, 2007 | Reply
There is some strange desire many women have to neuter their husbands. But, in the end they will hate them for not being men.
A wise woman enjoys her femininity and rejoices in her husband’s masculinity. Take it from an old guy, you ladies are fighting against your own happiness.
-David
Comment # 14 by David Littlefield | Nov 29, 2007 | Reply
David -
What are you talking about? What specifically about any of the things the women (or the men, for that matter) have mentioned “neuters” their husbands? What is specifically masculine or feminine about fixing things around the house or doing laundry or having conversations with each other or even playing with and caring for children? I didn’t see anything in any of the women’s statements that demeans or emasculates the men in their lives. I disagree with Jana’s husband’s sharing his temple name with her, but I don’t see that doing so makes him “neutered”. The people who have posted so far seem to be content in their marriages, and no one has claimed that he or she is being oppressed.
Comment # 15 by Villate | Nov 29, 2007 | Reply
To the likes of David LIttlefield–you should check out this news story about a study showing that feminists–both female and male–actually enjoy better sex lives than their counterparts who embrace more traditional gender roles. In fact, “for both women and men there was a benefit to having a feminist partner. Feminist women were also more likely than others to be in a romantic relationship.”
So consider the possibility that men who are lucky enough to end up with wives and girlfriends dedicated to gender equality are not, after all, “neutered,” but instead become more manly and more human because of the respect their partners grant and receive. In other words, it’s actually pretty darn likely that we young “ladies” (as you call us) and our male feminist partners know something about both happiness and pleasure an “old guy” like you will never get to experience.
Comment # 16 by A Non | Nov 29, 2007 | Reply
Though on occasion I get my husband into a skirt (a plaid kilt or his Japanese kimono), I most certainly don’t want him neutered. I appreciate his, um, ‘manhood’ very much thank you.
But it’s always a HUGE turn-on for me when he cooks dinner, changes the sheets on our bed, does three loads of laundry, vacuums, or does all of the dishes. Whoa and he did every single one of those today–Lucky Me!
Comment # 17 by Jana | Nov 29, 2007 | Reply
Anon:
Since you have taken offence to being called a lady, what egalitarian term should be applied towards adult females?
-David
Comment # 18 by David Littlefield | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
let’s see, a few ideas:
woman
human
person
partner
friend
Comment # 19 by Jana | Dec 1, 2007 | Reply
Hey David, my wife doesn’t hate me for pulling my weight in cleaning, cooking, or raising the kids. And if you think that makes me less manly, we should discuss “manliness” sometime in a ring or on a mat.
Comment # 20 by Rick Jepson | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply
hear, hear! “Lady”, although it often purports to be a compliment, is often a synonym for “woman who does what she’s told [by men]”. That’s why most of us object to it.
Comment # 21 by Reg-o-rama | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply
David:
How do you know I took offense at your use of the word “ladies”? I didn’t. I merely wanted to call attention to the fact that my use of the term was based on your previous use of it.
If I took offense at every inane comment some “old guy” made because he doesn’t know a single thing about feminism or enlightened, egalitarian gender relationships, I wouldn’t have time for anything else in the whole world.
Comment # 22 by A Non | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
Rick:
First I would be very surprised if you could take me, I have also spent some time on the mat and in the ring (and just in the street). But, if you are really insistent, send me your address, if I fell like fighting one day, I may look you up.
Second, do you consider yourself a feminist male?
Third, do you paint your toenails?
-David
Comment # 23 by David Littlefield | Dec 4, 2007 | Reply
1. HA! Very spunky. Drop me a line any time you’re in Utah Valley and get the urge. We get together to box or grapple all the time, and you’re invited any time you feel like displaying your extensive experience. jepsonrick “at” hotmail “dot “com” There’s a submission tournament in SLC next saturday, and I’d love to meet you there. Or there’s another in Vegas next March. I’m in San Diego every once in a while to train with an old buddy of mine. Since that’s closer to you, I’ll let you know when I’m there. Just in case you feel like teaching me that lesson. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
2. I don’t consider myself many labels. I treat my wife like my equal. And I have enough confidence in my manliness not to feel emasculated by doing dishes, cooking dinner, or raising my kids. Don’t you?
3. I actually don’t paint my toenails. But this man does.
Still, though, given all those street fights under your belt, you’re probably more manly than him. Right?
Comment # 24 by Rick Jepson | Dec 5, 2007 | Reply
It has finally happened - someone threw down a physical fight challenge on our high and mighty intellectual board.
Man . . . . oh man . . . .
Comment # 25 by anon | Dec 5, 2007 | Reply
Sweet! Count me in!
But I propose something more interesting than contributing to brain damage.
How about a “Who’s Got the Largest Set” daredevil competition of only 3 events on Oahu in Hawaii during small craft advisories (all require the ability to swim):
1. Riding the “Toilet Bowl”
2. Riding the walls at “Washing Machine Cove”
3. Cliff jumping the top at “Spitting Cave”
Whoever does these is truly a man and doesn’t have to fight, unless of course one wishes to for the competition and/or entertainment of it. (Unfortunately, due to this sport we’re probably going to see a lot of Mohammed Ali’s unable to wipe their own asses when they get older. In my post-middle-age I prefer to stick to takedowns to limit my already significant brain damage.)
I agree that institutionally prescribed traditional gender roles and preferences are spiritually and socially primitive and don’t prove how manly one is. I have the similar urge to challenge anyone, including my Church, who might discriminate against me for being flexible and actually thinking for myself.
I am impressed with the above stories of more evolved (rather than “enlightened”) men who respect their women (and it all comes down to respect, regardless of role or responsibility, does it not?). I believe this is what the Church should teach and model.
Of course, I’m sure I’m not the only one who has witnessed and experienced attitudinal disrespect of men by women also. Some of it appears motivated by an attempt to compensate for the inherent structure and attitudes of the Church, which is not the kind of thing in which one should invest one’s faith, IMHO. My former spouse’s disrespect had nothing to do with religion, and was most likely a result of attitudes inherited through the model set by her parents, who stayed at home while sending the kids to church, and the fact that I ended up not being the kind of husband she had in mind.
Comment # 26 by Nicholas Blacksmith | Dec 7, 2007 | Reply
YES, Nicholas! I agree that mutual respect is the key!
Comment # 27 by Eugene Kovalenko | Dec 8, 2007 | Reply
hilarious blog1
especially the fight scene.
as a survivor of a horrible temple marriage where my ex neither worked to support his large family nor helped at home with housework or kids, a “lady” who went to medical school with 5 kids at home, survived an incredibly messy divorce, AND is a 2nd degree black belt - I could probably take you both on.
Having been the only responsible party in our household I don’t have too much respect for whiners on either side - fact of the matter is that Christ washed His disciples feet - and I am pretty sure would have changed any dirty diapers - he didn’t shrink from the lepers - yet was smart enough to call a halt to unbridled domesticity (Mary vs Martha story) - the important thing is that the work gets done, that partners are “evenly yoked” and that both have opportunity for development - it is not too important who does which work - I have done the total domestic thing and I have done the career thing - both simultaneously and out of necessity.
I do think the idea of both parties knowing each other’s temple names is intriguing, frankly I can’t even remember my own temple name at this point!
Comment # 28 by susan | Jan 7, 2008 | Reply
This has turned entertaining, certainly. Until Susan posted her reply, I had dropped off reading some of these comments. Susan - it certainly sounds like you’ve stepped up and accomplished a lot, despite the uneven yoke at times. Very inspiring!
And Anon - I don’t think it fair to think we label our board a “high and mighty intellectual” one. If nothing else, this thread shows that we are willing to drop any pretense.
I’ll probably regret reporting this, but just last night I spent an hour sparring, then went home and cooked dinner, bathed my youngest boys, did homework with my 5 year old, and then got them ready for and in bed. Didn’t feel emasculated at all. Of course, when I finally showered, I found that my soap was gone. I ended up using some kind of pink-colored soy milk and almond bath gel. Smelled froofy all night. That was a bit uncomfortable. But hey, I sparred.
Comment # 29 by Rory | Jan 8, 2008 | Reply
Rory:
Imagining you smelling froofy gave me the giggles. Thanks for that (I needed a giggle today).
Comment # 30 by Jana | Jan 8, 2008 | Reply
Hey Rory,
You go! I am all in favor of men cooking, bathing their kids, and using froofy smelling soap. Toenail painting is also lots of fun!
Seriously, I have a nephew who sews, an uncle who makes quilts, and a woman friend who welds, plumbs, repairs cars and builds houses. Whatever!!! None of these activities are “masculine” or “feminine”.
Actually sex is a continuum, just like every other trait, and although the majority of fetuses end up either female or male - there is a whole host of “anomalies” that can screw that up in utero - producing XY’s that look like females, XX’s that look like males, XXY’s, XXX, XXYY, etc., etc. Something can “go wrong” (if you like to call it that), at many different stages of development. Not to mention the myriad of enzyme anomalies that affect how a fetus develops. Generally parents have to make a decision which sex to assign these babies to, and then the surgeons and endocrinologists try to make them look as much like that sex as possible. And let’s not even get started on what causes homosexuality - one theory that actually has some good evidence is that it is an autoimmune response from the mother to the (male) baby.
The church often tries to exaggerate male/female differences for whatever reasons - when the fact is that there probably ARE some inherent differences, but they are often not the ones the church is emphasizing. Inherent differences that have good evidence might be - men have better 3 dimensional spatial abilities. Women may have better abilities at noticing details. This of course stems from our hunter/gatherer past (so goes the theory) where men were hunters and women were gatherers.
The most interesting thing is how flexible the human genome really is - for more on this “The Agile Gene” (Ridley) is a FASCINATING read.
Comment # 31 by susan | Jan 9, 2008 | Reply
I am perhaps alone here in believing that man has a patriarchal role. I didn’t create it, but I cant deny that it is part if the faith I have subscribed to. So I have to ask myself - “Did God intend me to be a dictator to my wife or a servant to her and my children? Did he intend her to be a surf or a valued counselor?”
I am a diaper changing, meal making, house tidying man. Yet I believe I have the responsibility to receive inspiration for my family (although this does not prevent my wife for giving inspired counsel, or the Lord from bypassing me if I fail in this). Most of this inspiration usually involves me being humbled, and meeting my family’s needs better. If there is an issue I am struggling with in regards to my wife, I am usually impressed to exercise patience and prayer, and to use encouragement and love. I would never withhold love, bribe, or use guilt to get my way.
I do believe a man needs to find God’s vision for his family. I do believe that most women respect a man more who can take responsibility, and who respects and helps his wife in her mission. I do think that many men have lost the respect of their wives by being dictators. However, I do believe in a God who is male, and yet can be compassionate and wise, whose has a wife who stands alongside him.
I am in awe of my wife, I do not feel worthy of her, but I feel I have a responsibility I cannot escape and still fulfill what God expects of me. I could try and reject the scriptures as sexist, and reinterpret thousands of years of revelation to suit modern society, but I am too inspired by the men and women who accepted those precepts and worked within them, and were the means through which miracles happened, and God’s purposes were accomplished. I cannot look at them and say “I know better, I am smarter than they were.” I would consider that arrogance in the extreme.
In my experience many LDS women I know are more disappointed by weak men they have lost respect in, which men are happy for their wives to lead, so that they can escape any responsibility. My wife is the strongest minded and intelligent people I know. I cant compete with her and I wouldn’t try, but I have the trial of trying to be equal to my responsibilities, and she has the trial to sustaining me (whilst I act in righteousness) despite my imperfections.
I owe these thoughts and ideal to my wife, the first Latter-day Saint I ever met, who taught me these principles and would defend them with her life. Anything good I do in my life I owe to her and God.
Comment # 32 by tobeyjaggle | Feb 2, 2008 | Reply