BYU Circumcised
I’ve been capsized, synthesized, de-emphasized, and frequently cut-down-to-sized (by my wife); I’ve been asked my suit size, shoe size, hat size, and cup size (for baseball); I’ve exercised, Mousercized, and once even jazzercised (long story)… but a couple of weeks ago was the first time I’ve ever been downsized (by my employer). As such, I’ve fantasized and hypothesized about my next step in life, job-wise. This means I’ve font-sized and italicized my resume to contain my pint-sized experience and aspiration. Others have scrutinized and constructively criticized my resume so that the pain of my job search might be minimized. This process lead to a troubling discovery, school-wise: I was told that if I publicized my undergrad degree from BYU, it could get me ostracized from some employment opportunities. But if I circumcised those three offensive letters from my resume — snip, snip, snip! — my job search would be maximized. Considering the source of this advice — LDS Employment Resource Services — my shock was super-sized.
Backing up a bit, let me first give a plug to LDS Employment Resource Services. When I was encouraged by a friend to give LDSERS a call, I initially demurred, thinking it a service for people at a different stage in their career. I thought I’d be better served working with a team of professional recruiters. But a friendly phone call with LDSERS volunteer/missionary “Phil” convinced me it would be worth my while to check them out. Phil was right. I attended their weekly, day-long “Career Workshop,” and came away with sound advice and several leads in my pocket. The three other jobless wretches in the workshop were, like me, semi-talented professionals with graduate degrees. As I walked to my car in the parking lot following the workshop, I mentally made another check mark in my “Good Things About the Church” ledger book. LDS Employment Resource Services is just the sort of tangible, service-oriented “good” that answers Matthew 7:20: “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
But what about that BYU advice? It seemed incongruous, coming as it did from a church representative standing in front of a picture of President Hinckley, the titular leader of the Brigham Young University, and a painting of the Pioneers laboriously pushing their handcarts through a muddy creek. Surely those Saints didn’t follow the prophet Brigham Young all those miles only to have their descendents cautiously conceal their degrees from the university that bears his name?
The advice was delivered with much regret (and I’m guessing without official sanction), but was based on the premise that the goal was to maximize my chances of landing a job. Therefore, since I do not live in the Mormon Corridor, and some gentiles are known to be anti-Mormon, I’d increase my likelihood of getting a job if I kept my religious affiliation secret. The Mitt Romney Statistics were cited as proof. The wide distribution of this recent video would also seem to give credence to his advice.
“But what should I put on my resume about my undergrad degree?” I plaintively asked.
“Just say you have a Bachelor of Science degree, and don’t say where you got it from,” he responded.
“What about my MBA degree?” I asked.
“Did you get that from BYU too?”
“No.”
“Then include the name of the school you got your MBA from.”
“But won’t that look incongruous? And what if they ask me in an interview where I got my B.S. from?”
“Then you’ll have to tell them. Just don’t volunteer the information,” he frankly responded.
It didn’t come up, but it probably goes without saying that “service mission” and/or my ability to speak a potentially important (from a business perspective) foreign language were also not advantageous experience/skills for my resume for the questions they’d inspire, at least according to this church-salaried employee.
What do you think? Does “being Mormon” take more off the table than a degree from BYU and the ability to speak Mandarin Chinese put on the table? Should a resume be sanitized, circumcised, and euthanized of its Mormon-ness???
March 26th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
We are fairly sure that my husband was passed over for an academic job because he is Mormon. He had been on a short list of interviewees, and then was not offered the job, but his friend knew someone on the hiring committee and did some checking for us, and that person said that the deal killer was because one of his references mentioned something about him being Mormon. (We didn’t attend BYU) While he might not have gotten the job anyway, apparently being Mormon certainly did not help. I think I’d go with the advice you were given. (Seems to me that Dick Cheney speaking at BYU commencement this year will not exactly burnish the BYU reputation in many places either.)
March 26th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Is Dick Cheney seriously speaking at commencement?????? I hadn’t heard that.
Didn’tt mean to hijack the threat, Matt. Sorry.
March 26th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
This is actually fairly pedestrian, and expected advice, from LDS Employment.
[Disclaimer: I served as a ward/stake employment specialist for over 4 years.]
The missionary is not trying to slight BYU. The advice is maximize anything on your resume that helps your cause and to minimize anything that hurts you. (I could give a one-hour lesson on the mistakes people make on their resumes.)
If you’re looking in a location or field where being a Mormon won’t exactly help you, then yes, omit the reference, unless they ask. Frankly, I would think that it’s silly for an employer to think bad about BYU, but at the end of the day, if you want the job, you do what you have to do.
Especially in the case of professionals — you want to remove anything that minimizes your PROFESSIONAL experiences. It’s quite normal to only put the name of the last university you attended for grad school and omit the name of the undergrad program. It’s also quite normal NOT to mention you were an Eagle Scout (do you really want them focusing on *high school*?). It’s also quite normal to not put the GPA (who cares?).
Unless your undergrad degree is somehow related, stick with your MBA and move on. The Church is *very* pragmatic when it comes to employment.
March 26th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
I will point out that personally, I leave in the BYU reference in my resume. My professional experience and qualifications overwhelm any qualms an IT executive would have about hiring a Mormon, and if there’s a Mormon executive in the mix, I want to leave it in. I also leave in, in my case, my Spanish fluency, because it’s a plus. I don’t mention my mission, because there’s no real place to include it in my resume. But BYU and the language skill stay in. If they don’t like it, screw ‘em. I can get a gig at another place. I’m in too much demand to trifle with one company, frankly.
But, If I were to get to the point I wasn’t getting interviews, I’d drop the BYU reference and just tell them where I completed my PhD and leave it at that.
[ABD, not PhD yet]
March 26th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Most employers care only where your last degree came from. If you don’t mention prior degree sources, they only conclude that they aren’t memorable, but that doesn’t really matter.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
My Mission is on my resume and it always comes up in the interview, and it’s always a plus and not a minus. the language is also a bonus, and I don’t even speak a useful language.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Matt,
I think this guy is off base in regards to your education. BYU is a respected school and you’re not going to miss out on anything by putting it on your resume. It will look like your trying to hide something if you don’t list it. Your language skills should be listed as well if you still have them intact. They make you a better and more well rounded candidate.
At this point in your career, I agree that your mission experience does not need to be included on your resume.
I’ve been headhunting for many years now and recruit for a variety of different positions. Of all of the HR managers, internal recruiters and headhunters I know, I’ve never heard of any candidate getting passed on simply for their religious affiliation. You’re either a fit or you aren’t. Your Masters, experience and specialized knowledge is what they are interested in. I think this guy may just have a persecution complex. It’s not like you’re back in Jackson County. You’re in a place with tons of Mormons and open minded people.
March 27th, 2007 at 7:44 am
queno, I don’t think the guy was trying to slight BYU either. I agree he was just trying to be practical, I was just surprised to hear it said given the context. The rest of your advice makes sense.
Simeon, I tend to agree with your take. I’ve left the name of the school on my resume because I think my experience compensates for any negatives BYU might bring to the table. Besides, in the accounting world, BYU is still considered one of the top two or three school in the country, I think.
I never had my mission on my resume so that isn’t an issue. Actually, I never considered putting it on my resume, but I mentioned it above in my blog post because I know some people do. Personally, I don’t think it adds anything, especially the further one is in his/her career. I’m sure there are exceptions, but in most cases it seems like filler/fluff, like someone listing one’s hobbies.
As for the Chinese language, I’ll probably include it or remove it on a case-by-case basis, depending on the job opportunity.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Anytime I see the construction LDSer, it looks to me like “loser” … it’s a construction I would avoid using.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Rick, sorry to mean to threadjack either, but don’t know how to contact you otherwise. Yes, Cheney is speaking at commencement. The Salt Lake Tribune and Deseret News sites have had stories, and there is a bit of an organized protest movement growing:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/691512543#body
http://theculturalhall.com/?p=86#comment-3622
To bring it back to the topic at hand, I wasn’t joking about the visit devaluing the BYU degree. I don’t think it will have a huge impact, but it certainly won’t have a positive impact on the prestige of a BYU degree in the eyes of many people.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Mission, BYU, being mormon are all positives everywhere else in the oountry except UTah. Well at least in the Midwest and Southeast.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Rick, I tried to reply to your question earlier, but the comment went to the Spam filter or was pulled. Yes Cheney is speaking at the commencement. My other comment linked to a petition against it, and a blog post which quotes the Trib article, but maybe those were what caused the earlier comment to not show up– so use google and you’ll find out more.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Paula,
In order to combat the Spam, we throw any comment with more than one link, or any comment from someone who has not had an approved comment, into moderation. I simply didn’t get to the moderation queue prior to your posting the last message. All comments generally make it through, unless they are clearly spam.
Also, Rick, I’d like to point out that you misspelled “thread” in your comment as “threat”. So, thanks, but now we have officially had a comment where “Dick Cheney”, “Hijack”, and “Threat” were used. Those underground NSA computers are now busy trying to figure out who this Sunstone group is, what Rick Jepson has against the VP, and how to neutralize us.
March 27th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
A good many factors come into play over the course of a job search, but let me suggest one that hasn’t come up yet in this discussion.
I am a gay man. I am by no means the effeminate stereotype, but I do wear an earring and I tend to wear bright colors. I have an address in an area of Seattle that is known for its sizeable gay population (Seattle is second only to San Francisco now in percentage of gay households). Most recruiters or coaches would tell me to take out the earring when I go to a job interview, on the theory that a more conservative appearance enhances your chance of being hired.
I look at the situation from the opposite angle. I don’t walk into a job interview and announce that I’m gay, but even just my address is enough to raise the possibility in the mind of a knowlegeable local interviewer. The earring adds to that question. The “hints” are out there for anyone who’s observant. Now, is it possible that those hints will keep me from getting a job? Yes. The real question though, is why would I want to work at a place where they wouldn’t have hired me, had they known I was gay? Rather than being a barrier to job opportunities, I see these “hints” as a protection against landing a job where I’m surrounded by bigots.
The same goes for listing BYU on your resume. Would an active LDS really want to work for a boss who wouldn’t have hired him or her, had the boss known he/she was Mormon? That’s the ONLY kind of job that you’d get blocked from, so consider it a benefit, not a liability. We all spend a lot of our lives at work, and none of us wants to be unwelcome!
March 27th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Nick, I think you make some strong points. I think it matters how much one’s religion or sexual orientation (or whatever) is part of one’s identity, and whether that part of one’s identity is public or private. I know Mormons and Gays who strongly identify as Mormon or Gay (or both) and wear that identity in public, and others who identify just as strongly but keep that aspect of their identity private. I’m sure we’ve all experienced the shock of discovering someone we’d known for a long time to be either Mormon or Gay.
In the secular world I’ve always felt more comfortable keeping my Mormon identity private. Such a disposition is not necessarily motivated by shame or embarrassment, but more by the feeling that my religious faith/belief/community/culture is personal or separate from secular life. I prefer a more neutral public stance and a compartmentalized approach to life.
“Identity,” both interior and exterior, is a pretty fascinating subject.
March 27th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Well said, Matt.
I don’t feel it’s so much a matter of “identity,” as it is simply not having to hide important parts of my life.
In any workplace I’ve been in, my straight co-workers have talked about their significant others, where they went out to dinner, etc. I basically feel that if those discussions are appropriate, then it’s equally appropriate for me to talk about *my* significant other. Most of my co-workers know I’m gay, not because I make a huge deal of it, but rather because in the course of these normal conversations, I speak of my “boyfriend,” rather than “girlfriend” or “wife,” and of “Wes,” rather than “Wendy.” My co-workers don’t bat an eye. When he had pnemonia, my co-workers expressed concern and asked about Wes’ well-being, just as they would have if I’d had a sick wife or girlfriend. I like it that way. I wouldn’t want to feel like I couldn’t join in these sort of discussions, or that I had to use cryptic, gender-neutral language in order to hide the nature of my relationship.
While religion can be a sensitive topic, your co-workers most likely mention from time to time that they have plans for an activity at their church, or tell a funy story that happened over the weekend when they attended their Sunday services. If your co-workers mention they are Episcopalians, nobody particularly cares. Expressions of your being LDS should be equally commonplace and normal.
To each their own, of course. These are just my own perspectives.
March 27th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
Yup, agree 100%. My religion just doesn’t come up that often, but my personal life and family do all the time. It would be much more difficult to fit in if I had to hide the fact that I had a wife and children.
At my last job I had two co-workers who I suspected were gay. It wasn’t the physical cues that made me think this as much as the calculated and guarded things they said (and didn’t say) about their personal lives. When it came up it was usually “my friend” this or “my friend” that. It took a ton more effort for them to keep their sexual identity private than it would have taken for me to keep my religious identity private. I felt bad for them, but hey, maybe they thought our office would give them the Dwight Schrute and Michael Scott treatment.
At the same job I also had a co-worker who knew I was LDS and confided to me in a conspiratorial whisper that he was a Jehovah’s Witness, “but don’t tell anyone.” We talked about our religious backgrounds later and his reasons for keeping his faith private were more or less the same as mine.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
I have found the exact opposite to be true, and the BYU on my resume has done nothing but open doors for me. And I work in Television in the midwest.
In general BYU grads have a rep for hard work, dependable, smart workers. Not sure why it would be a negative, except in the head of religion bigots.
I choose to attend because it was a good school in my specialty, and was cheap. I don’t think my BYU experience ENTITLES me to anything (unlike some graduates) but I have found it has served me well. I would feel like a sell-out if I hid it.
May 3rd, 2007 at 3:19 am
I have personally witnessed most everything that has been discussed in the previous comments. There is great advice and wisdom here and I would add one more thought. Know your target employer and job role!!!!!
I know that top law enforcement agencies (FBI, and other US Gov agencies) actively recruit graduates from BYU because of beliefs (honesty) not adding this to a resume might hurt. Also I have heard that some SALES oriented job manager’s say that any religious missionary experience is a plus (nothing harder to sell than religion especially for 2 yrs!). Thus in this case, noting an LDS mission on one’s resume might be a good thing. As in the case of IT or skill specific industry, noting a mission/second language/Eagle scout etc. may be a waste of space. Rather noting a degree from BYU would be acceptable (most employers just want to see degree and school) and more emphasis will be placed on current industry certifications and experience.
NOTE… This approach may not apply in Utah! I have worked for companies in Utah and agree that BYU may hurt in all cases. (You may run into a staunch Mormon, however he graduated from UofU and all of a sudden your in the round file!)
Be aware that you may not be popular in the South East US or San Francisco, Ca. geography can play a big role as well.
May 8th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Never thought of a BYU undergrad degree as a negative. I live in New York and although people don’t know squat about Mormons they do think of BYU as a respected university.
I have noticed that people tend to laugh at Falwell’s Liberty University, Bob Jones U., and similar institutions. BYU and its sponsoring church are thought of more highly.
Hey, I was part of the Parsons College adventure in the 70’s. Turns out a degree from Parsons is still considered very respectable.
Ya never know.