30 Comment(s)

1. Perhaps a womens sphere- mens sphere argument might be used here? If the expectation in the church is that mens sphere is the public sphere, then men’s ritual would,logically, be the more public ritual. This is not an endorsement but merly and observation of what I’ve seen. Thus, even in our public ritual (and probably private) women are confined to the private sphere

   Comment # 1 by canadiancynicism | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

2. I think that that’s a valid argument. If so, then we should be able to find examples of woman-only private/domestic-sphere rituals. My wife suggests that these might include baby and bridal showers, the first trip to the gynecologist serve as coming of age rituals, in addition to the religious rites of the welcoming into Young Women’s and Relief Society.

   Comment # 2 by John Remy | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

3. The Young Women have “Young Women in Excellence”, “New Beginings”, “Girls Camp” and mia maids, bee hives, and laurels…

   Comment # 3 by Matt W. | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

4. What about Girls camp as a private ritual? There was an excellent story on Popcorn Popping a while ago about the strange rituals of girls camp.

   Perhaps the privacy of womens ‘rites’ in the church is due to their lack of codification. When the women blessing the sick got yanked in the 1920’s, and speaking in tounges got ditched there are fewer public expressions of adulthood for women in the same way as there are for men, it moves very publically and directly for men, with public actions in each of the priesthood roles, but women, you’re tucked out of sight in the RS and YW rooms….then later in the ‘Mothers Lounge’ which are anything but mother or lounge oriented.

   Fascinating train of thought!

   Comment # 4 by canadiancynicism | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

5. There are transitions for girls and women in the church–primary to young women’s, young women’s to Relief Society. But these events are not marked by any recognizable, systematic or consistent observance, which is why I hesitate to call them rituals. If local leaders do something to recognize these transitions, consider yourself fortunate.

   In contrast, go anywhere in the world and a young man’s initiation into the priesthood is a publically recognized event, announced from the pulpit and given a sustaining vote from the congregation.

   Is there a price for directing ritual observances predominantly at men? Young women see they don’t get the same kind of recognition or opportunities to participate at church that boys do and they can articulate the differences in the way they are treated. We keep trying to reassure them they really ARE of equal value and worth, but that doesn’t work when they can see otherwise. Separate but equal wasn’t equal, either.

   And how does it affect relationships to have men performing the ordinances and rituals and women receiving or merely observing them? It’s clear women and men are not on even ground when one is always the doer and the other the spectator or the receiver. And women’s attempts to be more participatory–like getting to hold their child while it is being blessed–get officially shot down. How can that not affect how we interact with each other?

   Comment # 5 by Mary Ellen | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

6. I think efforts have been made recently in this regard with Achievement Days and emphasis on the Young Women’s in excellence award. Many, many other cultures celebrate menarche. Somehow, I think the feminist types would take that as something of a step backwards, recognizing women only for the ability to reproduce. However, if we really do want rites of passage similar to males, this is one culturally established way to do so. Jewish liberals are currently embracing their menarche ceremonial washing(I forget the name of it) even after it had been frowned upon for decades as you were “unclean” until it was performed. I think the reason is that they realized their is value in recognizing womanhood. There is something important and affirming in doing so.

   Comment # 6 by Doc | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

7. While I think that Doc is right to point out an increased attention to things like YW Achievement in Excellence, for the most part, I’m going to have to agree with Mary Ellen. A lot of the rituals for women that are in some way “public” have not been especially meaningful for me (and I tend to think that in the broader culture they are viewed as being less significant than males receiving the priesthood). Perhaps it is a quirk/fault of my character (I typically sought “public” approval through academic means), but I felt like my YW in Excellence Award was anti-climactic, and that many of the other “rituals” (New Beginnings) annoyed me. They were often highly cheesy with no substance, and in my mind, were not in any way equivalent to something as powerful as receiving the power to act in God’s name.

   Additionally, as Mary Ellen points out, you often don’t have women administering the rituals (or even assisting in any kind of meaningful way). As she asked, how can this not affect our relationships? (A side note: Despite all the issues I have with the temple (and I’m not trying to bring on a temple debate here), one of the things I value about it is that women are not only participants in the rituals, but are administrators of some of the rituals as well.)

   Comment # 7 by Seraphine | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

8. I am encouraged by John’s new topic, his wife’s background and comments by the women, especially “canadiancynicism” and am emboldened to contribute. It seems to me that there is are important distinctions between what one means by “ritual”, “rite”, “ordinance”, etc. but John seems to lump them together in “ritual”. I’ll accept that for now.

   I am reminded of two long-ago, vital personal experiences of the ritual of “healing hands.” The first was a rescue ritual by a man; the second was a transformation ritual by a woman.

   The first ritual was performed by a well-known Mormon priesthood holder to whom I’d gone for help on the eve of my doctoral dissertation defense. I was at the time in a deep, almost suicidal depression. Earlier that day I’d tried to present my dissertation as a dry run before the Physics department. It was a disaster! I had become incoherent and unable to function. There was clearly something very wrong and out of balance with me. Although I only knew this man by reputation, having heard him speak once in church several years earlier, I remember the feeling I had when he spoke—that he was a man of God.

   So, I found myself with my priesthood companion, on the sidewalk approaching his home from which he and his wife had just exited for the evening. He took one look at me and said simply, “You’ve come for a blessing.” “Yes”, I answered and he led us back to his home after asking his wife to wait for a few minutes in their car. Asking only my name before placing his hands on my head to “seal the anointment” that my companion had performed, the man struggled to speak for some time. Suddenly his voice became powerful and unequivocal as he promised that “a cordon of angels will surround you in your hour of need, that your mind will be released.” I have never forgotten those words.

   The next morning, an hour before the start of the formal dissertation defense, the curtain of my mind went up! And I had the breathtaking new experience of total recall! There was nothing I could not remember, nothing I could not improvise, and I sailed through that academic challenge with ease. Never mind that the depression came back later that afternoon as I boarded the plane for home. My career had been rescued. That is, temporarily.

   A year and a half later, I found myself in the wilderness, having lost career, family, church, reputation, money and almost all my friends—virtually everything I had held dear. In that wilderness I met a renegade Episcopal priest who invited me to come to his “Ranch of the Way” to rest. On our arrival, there was only one other person at the main house, who had also been invited to the ranch to rest from professional burn out. She called herself “Mike”. After exchanging getting acquainted pleasantries and she had asked about my background (which had become bleak), I asked about hers. “I’m a masseuse”, she said. “What’s that?” I asked. “Take off your clothes and get on the table!” she commanded. I was too shocked and surprised not to obey. I’d never had a massage before, nor been touched by a woman other than my wife.

   What happened on that table was a different kind of anointing. She literally bathed my frightened, uptight body with oil and went to work. Hour after hour she worked, as I could not relax and take in the caring in her hands. Then she began to talk to me, telling me things about myself that I’d never told another soul. It was amazing and I began loosen. Encouraged by this small opening, new energy swept into her and into me, as I was literally transformed on that table. She, too, had changed into “Michele”. Both of us had changed radically, spontaneously, miraculously. The next morning she left the Ranch on her way to India. I never saw her again, but I have never forgotten the miracle of her God-given, powerful healing hands.

   Such was the contrast of two healing rituals, one formal ecclesiastical, the other informal, spontaneous and non institutional. I would be hard pressed to say which was more important. Both blessed my life at critical moments and both were inspired.

   ANM

   Comment # 8 by A. Nony Mouse | Oct 17, 2006 | Reply

9. I’m intrigued by the female role in the temple, where women perform a great deal of the “priesthood ordinance.” I’d be interested to know, from a female point of view, how that feels. Is it incongruous with the rest of your experiences in the church….where women participate much, much less in the rituals? Does it feel unnatural or more like a relief—like the way it should be? If women can impart the secretest of priesthood token, why can’t they name their baby or pass the sacrament? I’ve never gotten that.

   I have a personal love of ritual, and am disapointed in not being able to share more of it with my spouse. We’ve privately reverted back to the earlier tradition of health blessings: I’ve had my wife “lay hands” with me several times when our kids have been sick. It’s funny, becuase until this very moment that never seemed remotely controversial or contrary to me…but now I’m suddenly realizing that it might be a big deal to my bishop or dad or someone.

   I think the biggest disappointment I’ve had in the Church has been blessing my two babies publically with my wife sitting in a pew 100 rows back. Surely there could be a place in our blessing/naming ritual for mom to participate.

   I know that no one wants this discussion to turn to a tired-out argument about women and the priesthood….but it’s tired-out because it is such an important question. This week–no joke–my wife is expected to go to an enrichment night to make a nativity set out of tongue depressors…………………surely our Heavenly Parents didn’t mean for the roles to be THAT different. Am I wrong?

   Comment # 9 by Rick Jepson | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

10. I agree with John’s points in principle, and I would fully support and/or encourage the creation of additional rituals/rites for girls/women in the Church (or share the same rituals/rites as the boys/men).

    I can’t muster much emotion for this issue though, and I think that is because I often felt apathetic (and sometimes resentment) about many of the rituals/rites I experienced growing up in the Church. The feelings were not motivated by issues of faith/belief, but more stress/pressure. These rites/rituals were just one more responsibility/duty, one more thing I had “to do” in a life I felt was already overcrowded with responsibilities and pressure. As such, my one act of defiance growing up was my steadfast refusal to get my Eagle.

    So, to be honest, I sometimes envied the girls and their luck/ability to kind of “fly under the radar.”

    Comment # 10 by Matt Thurston | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

11. Re: #9

    That women administer ordinances to women in the temple is comforting to me. So is knowing there’s a long history of women administering to the spiritual and physical needs of other women–and not just within Mormonism.

    What’s sad is that we’re so far removed from those practices now, even though the door is open theologically for women to access and use all the spiritual gifts available to believers.

    Few people seem aware that women DO administer priesthood ordinances or acknowledge that women exercise priesthood authority in the temple. Sometimes when I bring this up, it’s clear the thought has never occurred to some lifelong, temple-going Mormon men. (What, did you think some guy is over on the women’s side, washing and anointing them?)

    To me, failing to acknowledge this outside the temple is downright schizophrenic.

    Comment # 11 by Mary Ellen | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

12. Hey, welcome to the I Didn’t Get My Eagle ‘Cause I’m Too Cool Club, Matt. I was inducted on my 18th birthday when I stood: not one Eagle project away (I had done two), not one merit badge away, but one requirement of one merit badge away from getting my Eagle.

    Despite the fact that I had no money to speak of, for some reason it was impossible for me to keep track of my finances for three months in order to fulfill the last requirement for my Personal Managent merit badge.

    Who wants to join a club that let Ted Bundy into its ranks anyway?

    Comment # 12 by Stephen Carter | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

13. Nony,

    What a beautiful story. It very much goes along with my current life path, to find the sacred (and the profane) in everything. I balk strongly when people insist on telling only one story, the story of why they are right. But when, as you did, they tell a story about how their vision was expanded, my ears really perk up.

    Comment # 13 by Stephen Carter | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

14. Ted Bundy? Yeah, he was a pretty bad guy. Must have been the Eagle. Scanning the following list of famous Eagles — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Famous_Eagle_Scouts — I note that Mark Hofmann was an Eagle Scout as well. Wonder if he forged his Eagle Certificate? So was — horror of horrors — John Tesh!

    I stumbled through the scouting program achieving the rank of Life without much effort. I’m guessing I was probably eight or nine merit badges and a project away from an Eagle. To be honest, I didn’t (and still don’t) have much of a problem with the Scouting program. To be sure, I’m not much of a hiker/camper guy (though I love the outdoors), and the uniforms are needlessly goofy. My refusal to participate after age 15 or so was my own personal protest (think late 60s sit-in or hunger strike or bra burning) against “the system,” a system that expected me to go to church, go to “Mutual”, go to early-morning seminary, get on the honor roll at school, practice the piano, play high-school basketball, get an Eagle Scout, and walk little old ladies across the street. To be fair, with the exception of seminary, I liked, and sometimes loved many of those activities/responsibilities… but damnit(!) I wasn’t going to be guilt-tripped into being an Eagle Scout too! I was told I would regret it someday… well guess what Mom, I’m well into my 30s and I still don’t regret it!!! Ha!

    Comment # 14 by Matt Thurston | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

15. Yah, I’m in the “wasn’t going to be guilt-tripped into getting an Eagle Scout club, too”
    

    Comment # 15 by jana | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

16. I actually finished all my merit badges, did an Eagle project, filled out all the paperwork, and scheduled a board of review. Then I just never bothered going to it or turning it in. It was some bizarre teenage rebellion thing.

    And: “What, did you think some guy is over on the women’s side, washing and anointing them?”

    EXACTLY!

    Comment # 16 by Rick | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

17. You really thought that men were washing and anointing women? Show of hands here guys, is that what you guys really thought?? Oh my!
    I can’t imagine how much freakier my temple experience would’ve been if some strange man was administering the initiatory. Whoa….

    As it is, I have enjoyed being blessed and anointed by women in the temple. I remember the first time I went through, musing on the way the women’s hands felt so soft and light on my head–much different than the times I’ve been blessed by men. I have heard female temple workers speak of what a privilege it is to bless other women in the temple. It makes me wish that we had other venues where we could serve each other in that ’sisterly’ way.

    Comment # 17 by jana | Oct 18, 2006 | Reply

18. Dear friends and spiritual kin,

    I am surprised by how much “guilt trip” stuff there is by so many contributors in this thread. The LDS priesthood has always felt arbitrary and artificial to me, but achieving Eagle Scout status has not.

    For me my Eagle badge symbolized having achieved a level of competence that was real—it could be measured in terms of performance. My Bird Study merit badge was the most difficult one to achieve in the desert city where I grew up. It took me a year and 9 months to personally observe and describe 40 different species of birds in that territory. But after the more than 50 years since, I still recognize many of those birds and their calls and it gives me quiet satisfaction. My Court of Honor, during which my Eagle Scout badge was formally awarded, happened on my 16th birthday. It was a proud day for both my brother and me and our mother. My brother, a year and three days younger, was also awarded his Eagle during the same ceremonies. We both acknowledged that the little Eagle pin, which was formerly put on our mother during that event to her great pleasure, was richly deserved. Our dad wasn’t around.

    That day and that event was a true rite of passage for me. During the year that followed I bought my first car with my paper route money. During that same year I stood up to my abusive father for the first time, vowing that he would never beat me again. I was now his size and much stronger. He knew I meant business and backed down. Our relationship changed permanently after that and we became friends. He began to respect me and became my champion. As a result, I worked even harder to make him proud of me. My mother, on the other hand, seemed suspicious of this change of attitude. Both parents had lost control. However, my father was pleased to see me grow; my mother seemed afraid of my growing independence.

    So, John, when you compare the “priesthood” to a “shiny pin”, I think you’ve put your finger on a correct distinction between achievement and symbol. If one works for the symbol primarily to have a badge of honor to please someone else, then one has missed the point. The symbol isn’t where the value is. And if one has not earned the competence of what it represents, then it is a hollow victory. And it is appropriate to feel guilt and resentment at being pushed to value the shiny thing, having missed the experience and confidence that comes with genuine achievement.

    Comment # 18 by A. Nony Muss | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

19. I certainly think that the rituals women perform are private ones. While I have a lot to say about the value of including women in public rituals, and am loathe to accept the idea that motherhood = priesthood (especially because not all worthy women can be mothers, and not all women who are mothers are worthy), I am forced to admit that I’ve been incredibly touched at times by some of the parallels.

    One example that stands out to me is one Sunday morning I had made some toast for my son, he finished it and was impatiently whining for more food. Rather than make him wait for more toast, I simply took a piece of bread and started to break it up into bite sized pieces for him. A thought suddenly popped into my mind that though it was not the sacrament, it was definitely a sacrament, one that I was priviledged and obligated to perform. Since that time I’ve considered the prevalence of feasts, and other ritual meals described in the Bible. They’re often mentioned in passing, commonly as the setting for something else considered noteworthy, but I’ve little doubt that the meals, probably prepared and served by women, were considered vital and important ordinances.

    Comment # 19 by Starfoxy | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

20. Historically, men’s rituals have been the more public: when a boy becomes a man, he becomes able to hunt for the tribe, be apprenticed to a local master, or lead the faithful in prayerl. When a girl becomes a woman, the visible sign of that change is that she is now able to bear children. The affect of this appears to have been that her rites, while just as important to the tribe/castle-town/church as hunting, smithing, or priesting, end up being much more private. She is taught how to handle her monthly reminder that she is fertile, how to become (or not) pregnant, and similar “womanly” wisdom.

    Unfortunately, over time, this has resulted in womens’ rituals being denegrated and, eventually, disappear altogether. canadiancynacism mentioned popcorn around a campfire and Matt W., bees. These may be the rituals that a girl-child-become-woman might now remember as the things that acknowledged her as an adult. If so, they are terribly important—public (even among, as jana says, sisters) recognition of adulthood.

    A ritual as simple as being blessed by your sisters-in-community may have more importance to a child then the priesthood. Now, it may not, and here we can get into the should-women-be-priests argument, but for our purposes: it seems that women’s rituals continue to be women’s; while men’s rituals are the community’s. For good or bad…

    Comment # 20 by Reg-o-rama | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

21. Why even worry about who’s performing initiatories anymore, now that the washing, anointing and clothing in the Garment have been removed from the ceremony? The recent changes to the LDS initiatories are remarkably parallel to how other churches have developed “sprinkling” as an alternative version of baptism. Of course, the LDS look at those OTHER churches as having “changed the ordinances.” LOL!

    Comment # 21 by Nick Literski | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

22. Nothing to add, except to tell Eugene, Starfoxy, and Reg-o-Rama (#18, #19, #20) that I found each of their comments literate and thought-provoking. Thanks.

    Comment # 22 by Matt Thurston | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

23. Thank you, Matt And Starfoxy: I just finished reading Made From Scratch, by Jean Zimmerman, in which she argues just that. The act of providing food for the family, whether performed by man, woman, or both, is an important familial sacrament. Just like keeping the home clean. Not that we should all quit our jobs and become house-spouses, but that we should acknowledge the value in it. I also agree with you that not all women who can be should be mothers. Perhaps not all men who can be should be priests. In each case, it should be a choice made only after thoughtful research (including, perhaps discussion and prayer), rather than simply assumed upon coming of age.

    Comment # 23 by Reg-o-rama | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

24. I would have to disagree with the argument that Girl’s Camp, transitioning from primary to YW, going from Beehive, to Miamaid, making dinner for the family etc. are rituals. Not that these events are unimportant, but they are events, and if we call them ’sacred’ it is only because we are trying to relabel them as such. The Mormon community does not consider these transitions or events sacred rites. Sacred rituals and rites carry a public recognition of the event being sacred and holy. And, the sacred rituals and rites that the Mormon community considers sacred and holy, are all of those associated with the priesthood, which women are not allowed to participate in (atleast outside of the temple), only to be the benefactors of such ordinances.

    I think it is so important for women to carve out their own sacred and holy rituals and rites, but right now women are left with very little to truly guide them in regards to sacred rites and rituals. I think this is why I used to love the initiatories at the temple, because it was the only time we got to see other women annointing, laying their hands on other women and blessing. I loved feeling that power from other women and I would love to be both the giver and the receiver in other sacred rites by women, for women.

    Comment # 24 by Kristy | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

25. Jana, I meant “that’s EXACTLY my sentiment”, not “that’s EXACTLY what I thought”

    Comment # 25 by Rick | Oct 19, 2006 | Reply

26. I agree that there’s a sad lack of public women’s rituals in the church right now. But given some of the disturbing coming of age female LDS rituals I’ve heard being done decades ago, I have mixed feelings about it. I was stunned to learn about the “Rose Ceremonies” some wards took part in in the 50’s and 60’s, in which girls upon turning a certain age (14?) dressed up in a white prom gown and got the rose talk. Which apparently consisted of leaders handing around a white rose, urging girls to touch it, and then talking about how bruised and ugly it is once it’s been touched and handled. Yikes.

    Comment # 26 by Caroline | Oct 23, 2006 | Reply

27. When a woman of faith is called upon of God to perform a “ritual,” a “healing,” a “cleansing,” or any other “ordinance,” there is nothing which can prevent her from doing so…except herself. Apart from that, it is true, that women must, and not without their own agreement to do so, deal with the effects of living within the imperfections and illusions of our culture. Does not Mormon doctrine teach us that we leapt for joy? How we play that out here in the temporal sphere–kicking against the pricks, submitting to “our place,” struggling with issues of self-worth, trying to change the system–limitless approaches, really–is a journey each woman must take. It is a wonderful pathway to self-knowledge, ultimately. It is nice to know, though, that there is an awarenss by men of our differing situations.

    Comment # 27 by Saijin | Oct 30, 2006 | Reply

28. perhaps equality may be found if we look at this issue with in a wider perspective. It is true that the bulk of the power in the mormon church is centered around males because of their ability to hold the priesthood, but let us look at society. It has been my experience (due to my generation, 25 and younger) that women weild immense power over men in the workplace and school through the advent of women being identified as a minority. A female may interpret virtually any outward expression from a male as hostile and take action against him accordingly. I’m not saying that females are always acting irrationally, there are indeed many times when the outward expression is threatening. But arent males often victimized by this arrangement?

    Comment # 28 by George W. Hayduke | Dec 29, 2006 | Reply

29. George, I frankly think your statement is ridiculous. .

    I can’t even comment further without being far more insulting than a forum like this is designed to withstand.

    Comment # 29 by Rick Jepson | Dec 30, 2006 | Reply

30. I don’t think (as I believe I’ve said in similar threads before) that this is an issue limited to the Mormon Church. I think society in general emphasizes a boy’s coming of age more than that of a girl. Which has always struck me as rather odd: a boy’s (outer) genitals take a while to get to the point where they’re no longer childlike where as a girl rather suddenly exhibits her fertility (something she is immediately told to keep hidden at all times).

    Comment # 30 by Reg-o-rama | Nov 10, 2007 | Reply

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